Not one of the obvious ZOE fans posting here have done either as yet, despite writing comically long responses.

As for Kojima’s comments, well he is of course going to give something hopeful for the fans. He’s not an idiot and even he knows that the sales and overall lack of popularity of the series, compared to games like Armored Core (which are arguably a lot more hardcore and functionally demanding), means that Kojima and subsequently Konami will go where the money is (but he’s not about to piss off any kind of fanbase, regardless of how small it obviously is).

The issue with the original Japanese release was that you had clusters of enemies spread out over large areas in many of the missions (much like in the original ZOE). So you then had two games operating independently of one another; one at range and one at melee with nothing in-between (not to mention the abject tedium of trundling between groups of enemies). There was no functional link between the ranges, compared to Virtual On which had fixed length vectored dashes that stitched long range and melee combat together..

I understand the reasoning as to why they did this, as having a fixed lock with rigid dashes inside a complex environment is very difficult to handle – as Virtual On Marz showed – but Anubis’s lack of meaningful linkage between the two modes of attack meant that moving between them was really dull and uneventful (even with all the subweapons, though if anything they accentuated the range issue further).

The Special Edition began to fix this, with the squad AI seeking you out more – so making up the range on your behalf – but it was obvious that this was very lacking in the original release (which was the one I reviewed). Zero Shift consequently felt like a very clumsy “fix” when it came to linking the ranges, as it just teleported you between them effectively. It was the functional equivalent of breaking an egg open with a hammer; it works but the end result is pretty messy.

Other games have dealt with this linkage issue with far better results than ZOE as well, with the Another Century’s Episode games being notable. As you have a boost gauge which depletes with usage and the boost itself limits the movement of the mecha once initiated. So you have to do something between the ranges of attack and couple with the nuanced handling of each of the mecha meant that the final result for all three games was far more varied and engaging.

Anyway, I’m locking the comments for this feature for the time being as most of this is about the review. If you want to discuss that, then please do so.

First, I totally disagree with Cacophanus. ZOE2 is a phenomenal game. And yes, I have had many years experience with import mecha games such as the Super Robot Taisen series, ACW, AC, Gundam VS, VO, Chrome Hounds etc. None of these games IMHO come anywhere close to scratching the finese of the gameplay in Anubis (Taisen is the exception as it’s just such a drastically different series altogether). Cacophanus, your response to these posters is rather surprising to me. Nobody is calling your lack of skill into question, and suggesting people are trying to undermine your point or attack your credibility because they feel you played the game incorrectly is a pretty obvious attempt at a Scarecrow Arguement. You’ve been told, by people who have played the game far more then you, that your playstyle lacks experimentality. If you want to review the ZOE series you need to give it a fair score and looking up stuff on FAQs and fansites does not compensate for actually replaying the game from start to finish with a more melee oriented style. You need to actually do the work and post a video prooving you’ve done so. Second, it has nothing to do with skill, and I again really don’t have any idea where you’re getting that from. You can play through all of the ZOE games using only the Dash Shot, but is that really experiencing all the game has to offer? Not at all. That’s what is going on here with your gameplay style, and that’s what you need to fix. You can’t really use Youtube comments (or lackthereof) as evidence, as some people will find almost anything impressive and respond as such. What I think the majority of people are refering to is the fact that in your videos you use almost no melee combat, grabs, subweapons or combos. Of course, that’s excluding the mandatory Vector Cannon in the battleship fight and Zero Shift melee in the final battle. Finally, no, sales are no way to judge the quality of a game. ZOE2 sold poorly due to having its release date abruptly changed from the holiday season to late winter (crappy sales in general) due to massive competition in holiday 2002. Kojima commented on this, saying he takes full responsibility for Anubis’ lackluster success and feels that if he had kept the original release date ZOE would be as big a hit as his main series Metal Gear. And even without massive sales I’d say ZOE has done very well in that it became a massive cult-phenomenon and, according to Kojima, the second most popular Kojima series after Metal Gear. Also, a sequel to Anubis has only been delayed due to Kojima’s success with the Metal Gear franchise, not negative reactions to the game. Kojima quote:

“ZOE is a title that has an extremely large fanbase requesting a sequel. That holds especially true for The 2nd Runner, the sequel. That game was praised all over the world, and we still get a lot of intensely devoted adulation for that game. After Metal Gear Solid, it’s the Kojima Production title that has the largest and most dedicated fanbase. But there is a mountain of things that have to take priority over that, and we just haven’t been able to make it a reality yet. I’m positive in my heart, though, that I’ll be able to bring a sequel to all the fans someday.”

Even if you think all the people that post here are trolls, they have valid points. Points which you’re circumventing rather then dealing with.

We’ll see though, as we have a big enough backlog of games to cover as it is!

I know the guy on mahq has been recently going back and re reviewing shows he reviewed years ago just to give a better or more insightful review.

Of course this depends on how much time you have.

Anyway ive said all wanted to say on this matter, it was an interesting debate.

Your the sales comment is a fair one though but I meant that as an ancillary example really, not a defining reason per se. Whilst there are many good games that have sold poorly, with Metal Wolf Chaos being obviously notable, there are games that have been shelved due to their lack of popularity on account of their flaws. The ZOE games do definitely fall under this category and this isn’t the fault of the mecha genre either.

To put all this into perspective, the global sales of both ZOE games are eclipsed by many of the individual iterations of Armored Core. This is is not to say that Armored Core series is by any means faultless, as some entries are woeful, but some are exemplary and have appealed to gamers as a consequence. Hence the continued survival of the franchise.

I do think there is a wider, more positive, argument to be made with ZOE though – as it does have quite an upbeat fanbase (in Japan admittedly) – and I will admit that I have gone back and fired up both games recently. So as to re-appraise my thoughts on them (on account of these many comments here) but I still find the functional side of the games deeply flawed. I still adore Shinkawa’s designs however, despite the game’s shortcomings.

It’s also worth clarifying, that the Anubis review on this site is one I wrote at launch (and was actually printed in a magazine, if memory serves). Just so that people understand that it wasn’t written off the cuff recently, that’s all.

Anyway on to your last part ok you know what you’re right and im wrong 5 is actually not abysmal but its not average either, its border line either way, right slap in the middle.

ZOE2 is not a game I associate in such manner.

Your next point is what really grinds my gears, you’re talking about sales.

To me sales have no reflection on whether a game is actually good or not, merely how popular it is, this has nothing to do with game mechanics, sound, and general overall gameplay.

Do bad designed games sell poorly? yes they sure do.

Do good designed games sell poorly? yes they sure do and there is the difference.

Okami and God Hand great games imo, but sold poorly, how you can phantom putting and justifying how well the game sells into your review score evaluation is quite questionable indeed.

Id expect such things from a lesser gaming site run by mainstream idiots that would give MW2 a 10/10 before they have even played the game for themselves, not a respected mecha game fan.

The mere fact we are talking about mecha games here, and lets face it apart from AC what else has decent worldwide numbers on consoles?

Im struggling to think of a game/series that even comes out worldwide tbh, their was the front mission series a fav of mine, but again that sold poorly and im betting squares atempt at westernizing the game with FM Evo will bomb too.

To me ZOE2 ended because the story was over for one and the mecha genre is not profitable enough for konami to try again especially with rising dev cost for next gen games.

In Japan it seems they are more happy with there mecha games on the arcade rather than consoles, which is probably why Gundam Vs franchise has been the leading mecha game for years with Border Breakers looking like its next in line.

I do think though that the aspersions cast towards myself and the site are more about indirectly dealing with my opinions, through undermining them, than openly discussing the matter at hand. After all, these supposedly advanced techniques haven’t been cited in any detail as yet and after investigating further much of this hidden depth appears to rather wishful thinking on the part of admittedly very dedicated fans.

Secondly, if you have a problem with the review it would make more sense to make your comment there rather than at the base of this feature that covers the series as a whole.

We also don’t adhere to a simple score system here either. As the tamashii number at the base of each review encapsulates the game in relation to the mecha mythos as a whole, it’s not a simple review “score” as we feel that mecha games cover a broad spectrum of functionality that ties into the wider influence borne primarily from manga and anime (something ZOE obviously falls under the remit of).

Anyway, as for specifics on the matter of mechanics linkage I’ve gone into a large amount of detail and specifics already, as shown above. This article is also a re-print of one from elsewhere, that also garnered very specific praise as per the detail of analysis and I quote:

“Great article–the terminology you use in some of those paragraphs is crazy-precise. I was trying to explain to a friend the principle in many mecha games where you have to match (or slightly exceed) a target’s lateral movement for your weapons to hit, but found I couldn’t explain it the way I wanted to. It’s good to know that there’s someone out there that can explain these kinds of things with accuracy.

I, too, was disappointed with the Zone of the Enders series. I think it was you, Kurokishi, who I talked about the game with before I finally got it, and I was really hoping that your criticisms were the result of extreme jadedness when it comes to mecha games. Unfortunately, despite the awesome art and narrative, I had to eventually agree–I don’t think I’ve wanted to like a game more than I actually did than Zone of the Enders 2. It should be a great game, but the many gameplay faults are so annoying, and so obvious, that it pulls down the art and narrative.”

To clarify on the time spent playing, the number quoted stipulated the time that the game could be easily completed in rather than the time actually played. As I went through both the original Japanese release and later the Special Edition over a good few weeks, though the former was the one reviewed. I do prefer the SE over the initial release however, as the boss battles were better gauged in terms of the difficulty and the squad AI was a lot more involved (something I mentioned above in fact).

There are also two videos in that review, as I also show the final boss fight with Anubis (one of the very few on YouTube). The video comments for both videos are also resoundingly positive in terms of how they are played as well. So this “lack of skill” gambit is suspicious, as it is obviously anomalous in relation to that (doubly so considering that both those videos have been freely available online for around 3 and a half years!).

Naturally, we do value the opinions of our readers but I’m sceptical of the intent and origin of these comments. I have no qualms capturing more footage though, as it’s fun but after browsing much of what has been posted since on YouTube I don’t see the necessity, as there’s nothing overly “skilful” about much of it (which is arguably the result of linkage issues I’ve already discussed at length).

In any case, if you have points you wish to discuss with the review, then feel free to do so there

I also feel your ZOE2 review doesn’t add up at all. The only real drawback you mentioned is this “linkage” thing, which you still explain rather vaguely, and then only support it by saying “ZOE team said this and that” and making all these claims about statistics without linking to any of your sources. It’s hard to take you seriously as a reviewer when your response basically “I’m an expert so I know what I’m talking about.” Your readers can’t just take that at face value as one’s self-proclaimed experience means next to nothing on the Internet. Evidence > “I read this/know this”

That’s also why people are looking down on your site when it comes to your ZOE experience. You claim to be experienced with the game, but your videos say completely otherwise. So while you can that we’re all out to “undermine your credibility” or otherwise call into question your ability to review the game (which is something even PAID critics lack immunity to), the fact of the matter is that doesn’t change anything. The fact remains that you are being told your playstyle is monotonic and does not accurately give credence to the work as a whole, both by average ZOE gamers and the experts who know the game mechanics far better then either you or I. The ironic and somewhat hypocritical thing is that you speak out on similar oversimplication and shallow gameplay experiences in your Vitual On review, so I have to agree with Chornus in that it does make you seem to be a VO fan who resents ZOE in some sense. Part of games is immersement in the mechanics to discover new experiences, and while you can claim otherwise, it is possible for a shallow playstyle to detract from an otherwise good game. In this case, almost everyone has expressed opinions suggesting you replay the game with a change of playstyles, as from what we’ve seen your choice of a VO esque tactic detrachted from several aspects of ZOE2 on the whole. You can write off all these people as ZOE fanboy-trolls, but consider that there are people out there with more experience then you, and therefore do have the authority to judge how you play the game and your review as a whole.

And seriously, what’s so hard about going through the game again? You can beat it in four hours, post a video showing off a more aggressive/diverse playstyle, and shut up everyone here by prooving you did give the game a fair shot. That, or spend hours upon hours responding to confused readers. Like it or not, this whole article comes off as somewhat questionable and decently bias, and has made past readers of MD (myself included) raise an eyebrow. How you respond ultimately reflects whether you value the opinions of your readers or feel yourself to be infalleable in this regard.

Virtual On, as a series, is mechanically more complex as you have to work within far more restrictive dashing constraints. This makes the versus element far more tactical but at the expense of a steeper learning curve. Complexity doesn’t necessarily mean the game is “better” though, as there are numerous mecha games that are overly complex to the detriment of how they play.

Regarding the Gundam Versus series and why Next Plus was rated higher, well the setup covers the linkage issue with the use of a finite boost dash that has to be managed (rather than the infinite variant seen in ZOE). In addition, that tamashii only covers Next Plus – not the Gundam Versus series as whole. The original Gundam Versus were similarly rife with problems, again to do with linkage between the ranges, it was only until the SEED iterations that the boost dash was implemented that helped fix the most of the issues (plus the removal of space based missions).

As for the ruse that I lack the skill to play the game and the supposed ZOE experts out there, please – if you want to make a point about the review or these articles then please do so. Undermining myself and other writers on this site in order to invalidate an opinion you disagree with won’t be tolerated.

Finally, a tamashii of 5/10 is not “abysmal”. It means the game is average in relation to other mecha games. Considering that the ZOE series’ sales were rather meagre and there have been no other sequels since Anubis, I think that appraisal is a fair one. Even the team were open about the series’ functional shortcomings too, so my take is hardly heretical.

What really threw me off is that your review was mostly postive and then it gets a 5? 0_o

I can find a ton more of abysmal mecha games that deserve a 5 and they are no way close to been as good as ZOE2, you have given the game a below average rating, which people I have shown this review have replied “he gave it a 5 0_o”

It is comming across to me that you are a VO fan and didnt like ZOE for surposedly ripping it off, the title of this very article makes me think that even more.

It is my personal opinion but when it comes to reviews I think you should judge the game on its own merits or if the game is a sequel then judge it on the one before, not on another franchise.

Wouldnt be nice if I said VO was rubbish because it doesnt measure upto AC or Gundam Vs.

I usually value your reviews, since I find them to be almost right to my thoughts.

In the end its your blog and you can say as you see fit, however I must admit after that review I find it hard to take what you say in your other reviews seriously and have to raise a eyebrow like a few other people do now.